Episode 53: Optimal Sleep Part 2 with Dr. Dan Bruce, DDS, and Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D

Podcast Drop Date: 3/5/2025

In this episode of The Functional Medicine Foundations Podcast, host Amber Warren, PA-C, continues the conversation on optimizing sleep with Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S., and Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D. In Part 2 of this series, they dive deeper into the science of quality sleep, exploring behavioral therapy, mouth taping, proper oral sleep hygiene, and the impact of sleep on overall health. Tune in for expert insights and practical strategies to enhance your sleep and well-being.

Transcript:

Connect with Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S:

Website: https://www.boise-dentist.com/

Instagram: @boiseintegrativedentistry

Connect with Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D:

Website: https://www.kyledavisphd.com/

Amber Warren, PA-C: Welcome to the Functional Medicine Foundations podcast, where we explore root cause medicine, engage in conversation with functional and integrative medicine experts, and build community with like minded health seekers. I'm your host, Amber Warren. Let's dig deeper. Welcome back everybody. Thanks so much for tuning in. This is part two of our episode on Optimal Sleep. If you haven't already, please go back and listen to part one and we hope you enjoy. Dr. Bruce, I want you to break it down as best as you can to like a fifth grade level on how our oral anatomy can really impact our ability to get good quality sleep.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Okay, I'll do my best.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I know it's hard for you to really break it down, but I want people to really grasp because this is where you absolutely shine in the profession of dentistry. And I want people to really be able to grasp, like the importance of recognizing it in themselves and their children and their family members and loved ones.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah, I mean, kind of what I tell people is, you know, there's are certain things that go on that help to develop our heads, necks, faces, all that kind of stuff. So it's not just our own, like sleep and breathing. It's also posture. Um, which, you know, so if you can't breathe through your nose, you'll breathe through your mouth and your tongue will then sit low. And the tongue is nature's orthodontic expander when it's sitting at the roof of the palate and it's pushing during swallowing, rest on the bones of the maxilla and mandible. Then your your arches will grow wide and they'll grow out. And we want that growth out and we want the width, um, if that doesn't happen or if you're chewing soft foods or, you know, not chewing, maybe there's a tongue thrust involved that's pushing teeth certain ways you'll notice crowded teeth, you'll notice asymmetries. You'll notice, you know, twists of of the jaw, things like that. Um, and so basically, if we live, you know, Paleolithic Lithic lifestyles where you're eating hard, raw food and you've got good nasal patency and you breathe through your nose, then you're going to see. And then the the archeological record shows this. You see these arches and even nasal passages that are wide and open and we can breathe. You know, the tough part is if you have toxicities, you have congestion, you have something you're allergic to, you have a tongue tie, as a baby, all that stuff. Then you start down the wrong path and it's really hard to overcome. The longer you wait, the harder it is. So it's it's good to notice early. It's good to, you know, even as an infant, look for tongue ties. And if they need to be released, release those along with all the proper support mechanism that goes into with a lactation consultant and, you know, body work, all the stuff that helps to get the body functioning right. And then when that's functioning properly, then the bones and the everything grow the way they're supposed to, and we end up with larger airways that are less likely to collapse.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Right. So if people don't know how to recognize a tongue tie, what are other things they can look for in their in their little baby or toddler? That could be.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I mean nursing problems is the biggest thing. So and then even things like colic. So if they're inhaling there and there's air, you know, they're swallowing that can cause discomfort. Um, but yeah, nursing pain is one of the biggest things.

Amber Warren, PA-C: How about kiddos that mouth breathe and snore?

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah. No kid should ever snore.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Right.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: So that's something. If that. If that's happening, then that's definitely an indication. Probably to see a sleep specialist and get that looked at. Um, along with all the stuff you guys do in terms of decreasing their inflammation and looking for causative problems. Um, the tough thing about mouth breathing is sometimes it can be a habit, right? So when your body, you know, figures out that this is the blood gas ratio that is breathing through your mouth, and that just kind of happens. Also, you lose the tone in your tongue and the the lips to properly breathe through your nose. So the earlier you can get ahead of that, the better, because then you can get the facial growth and development on the right path.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Okay. That's great. So what about patients that live in the middle of the Midwest and don't have access to someone like you, or a sleep specialist? Is there anything they can do to help help their child with appropriate development or just better sleep quality? Like what? Or what if you've got people that are. Here's here's an example. You know, I think everyone's talking. All these influencers are talking about mouth taping. Right. And it's going to fix all your problems. Mouth taping. Is there benefit to that? Would you recommend that for people or is it like here's a disclaimer.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I mean, I definitely recommend finding a specialist to help you. Myofunctional therapist is the best place. It's a really good place to start. Um, there are plenty of myofunctional therapists that will work remotely. It's not, I mean, it's best to work face to face, right? So you can see exactly how things are going, but you can get a lot done remotely. Um, there's all sorts of books on breathing; Patrick McKeown, is the Oxygen Advantage, The Breathing Cure. Um, I personally mouth tape because I know my nose is clear and it helps keep my lips closed. Um, whereas sometimes they'll open if I don't. But, I mean, there's a lot of things to go through to verify that that's the right thing. to do.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Because it could just be a bandaid approach.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah. I mean, you want to make sure the nose is clear. You want to, you know, have a have a specialist involved, um, a sleep doc if there's signs and symptoms of sleep apnea. Um, so, yeah, I do not recommend going out and just mouth taping without having a proper assessment first. But it can be a valuable part of treatment, for sure.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Great. Dr. Davis, do you mouth tape?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: I don't. Um, but I don't snore.

Amber Warren, PA-C: You don't mouth breathe or snore, so you don't need to.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah, but I'm curious. Like, what do you think would happen? Like, if somebody did tape their mouth? Like, what are the the potential repercussions of that?

Amber Warren, PA-C: That's a good question. Without fixing root cause is what you're asking. Yeah.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. I probably wouldn't be able to sleep.

Amber Warren, PA-C: But, I mean, I guess it depends on their nasal passage.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Probably, yeah. I mean, if someone's. We see patients that are so obstructed on their nose that they just.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah. It wouldn't be able to do that.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: They wouldn't be able to do it. And it would be very unnerving for them obviously. Right. They couldn't couldn't breathe. Um. I mean, that's a good question. Obviously, if you can do it, it probably wouldn't.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Hurt. Then you probably would find some benefit. You just wouldn't get all the benefits. You may or may not.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I guess it depends on.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Depends on your underlying issues.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Now, didn't you do an experiment where you went for a run and mouth taped? Didn't you do that?

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah, I tried to breathe through my nose.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah. When I run, tell me. So in a little bit of a different way. Tell me all the benefits from trying to just in the day to day or when you're exercising, you know, not at high intensity breathing. Breathing through your.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Well, for me, I think that you do generate nitric oxide in the sinuses when you're breathing through your nose, which is a vasodilator which creates more, um, more blood getting to your organs, you know, more.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Healing and oxygen brain.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: All of it. Right. Um, also. And from what I've, what I've been taught and read, as you breathe through your nose, you know, you change the pH of your blood a little bit so it's more able to dump oxygen onto the tissues that need it. So whereas you may get more mouth, you know, more oxygen through your mouth, the pH of the blood changes slightly so you're not able to use it.

Amber Warren, PA-C: And we can actually start to recognize that in some lab panels when we're seeing more acidity in the blood. And so that's one thing we think of. Is there a sleep disordered breathing or a sleep apnea type condition when we start to see some of those things.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: When we talk about sleep, too, if you breathe through your mouth, not only, you know, just anatomically, as you open, your jaw kind of drops back and that can create compression here. Also, there's an airflow dynamic to it too. The faster you breathe, the more likely you are to create negative pressure and suck that airway closed. So if you breathe in through your nose and also relax too, you're doing slow breaths and there's less airflow dynamics to create that negative pressure to pull it closed.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I'm curious from both of you clinically speaking, what are some of the most dramatic improvements you see to a patient's health or just their clinical symptoms when you. In your case they go from getting 5.5 hours of sleep to 7.5 hours of sleep at night. Some of those clients. What are some of the dramatic benefits we see?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Oh, man. Um, you know, people just feel, you know, so much, so much better. You know, during the daytime, I love helping people get off of hypnotic medications. Actually, I was just thinking, I'm. I think I'm going to use this example in an upcoming presentation that I've been working with somebody who was using mirtazapine for sleep. And so this guy also had, um, pretty serious kidney disease. So he's like on the verge of starting dialysis. Is that stage four like when you're there? Um, yeah. So anyways, stage four kidney disease, like contemplating, um, dialysis. And he's, he's like in his 70s. Um, anyways, I was able to help him start sleeping more soundly, and he really was a guy who went from like, five and a half to, like, seven hours a night, um, able to help him taper off his mirtazapine. And this was like, I wasn't planning for this. I was, like, totally oblivious. Um, but I know that mirtazapine is associated with weight gain. Um, so anyways, whenever we were able to get him off the mirtazapine, he started losing some weight, which was also helpful for his chronic kidney disease. And so, you know, potentially helped him get some more time before he would need to start dialysis. And so like, that was just such a cool example of how helping somebody improve the quality of their sleep and get off this medication for sleep that was having these other side effects was able to help him improve the kidney disease. Totally. You know, I was not thinking about that going into treatment, but it was just an awesome outcome.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Great case. Yeah. That's awesome. Dr. Bruce, what you got?

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I think for kids, I mean, one of the really cool things is in deeper sleep you release growth hormone. So we see some of these kids who are not growing. And then when they start sleeping, they sprout up. That's one of the big things that I think the parents are like, oh, I.

Amber Warren, PA-C: You know, it's so cool.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: That's so awesome. And then also for kids to concentration is the biggest thing or a big, big thing. So when you're not sleeping it just mimics ADHD symptoms. Right. Yeah. And so when we get them sleeping then grades start getting better. Um same thing with like, you know, and it doesn't, you know, there's so many factors that go into a lot of this stuff, but mood disorders. So anxiety and like even emotional outbursts. You know, get better. And that happens with adults also. Also too, you know when they get proper sleep then they feel less anxious.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I'm curious if you guys have opinions, I'm going to go there because I have like five times on this podcast. But opinions on especially our adolescents, um, and just the schedules that they're on with academics and sports and, um, just the fact that these schedules don't allow, especially the developing teenagers, we know how much sleep they need, right? Um, do you have issues with that? Like, do you think as a society, we we have a major problem, especially now that we're seeing the mental health issues in these adolescents that we're seeing, like, don't you think so much of that is just that we're not giving them the rest. They need the sleep they need. I mean, I can't imagine how much REM sleep these kids are getting.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah, 100%. We're really, really hard on our kids in terms of, um, you know, how much sleep we give them a chance to get. Yeah. Um, you know, if you're starting school at I don't know, what time did high school start? Like 8:00 or so.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Like, I think.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: 730ish?

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I mean, junior high is 7:50.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. It's like, that's so, so early. And, like, kids have so many after school activities.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: That, yeah. I mean, it's just really hard on this to even have the number of hours in a day to be able to sleep as much as they need. Um, it's difficult to to come by and not to mention, you know, there's a natural drift in your circadian rhythm and your teenage years where you tend to stay up later or sleep in later and you know that many kids are going to experience. And so it's just at odds, you know, with their sleep schedule. And so. Right. For me, like a stereotypical teenage patient really has more of a circadian rhythm disorder. And, you know, we have to try to help them sleep as well as possible during the week or the school week and then not undo what they've done over the weekend. And so we have to, like, try to find something that because it's I don't feel like it's fair to ask a high school kid to get up at like 630 on the weekends, you know, when they're not getting enough sleep during the week anyways. Um, but we have to find a compromise, you know, like 9:00, 10:00, you know, depending on the individual where you don't let yourself sleep too much. So you don't cause subsequent problems, like going into Sunday night. Monday night. Um, and you're able to maintain enough sleepiness to stay on pattern. But it's, it's really tricky. And it would be a heck of a lot easier if we started school at 9:00.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Do you think 9 a.m. would be a better like a more appropriate start time?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. There's a lot of evidence to that. You know, like kids grades go up, like, whenever we do this and then. Yeah. Um, but you'll hear, you know, when are we going to do sports? When are the busses going?

Amber Warren, PA-C: And the bus schedule is a big thing. When is the parents getting off work andhaving to go to work. A lot of parents don't get to go to work at 915 after they drop their kids off. So that makes it very difficult. I know it's something I think about a lot. Like, are we really setting our kids up to succeed? Especially with the issues that we see are especially adolescents and young adults dealing with nowadays?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I have a seventh grader and so, you know, going from when she could go to school at 8:40 to 7:50 and then I have to drive her to is, you know, it's it's hard. And then she's got basketball practice from 7:30 to 9. And it's like just because that's where the gym space is, they just don't have enough spots for it. It's um, and then sometimes I'm like, you can tell she's tired. I'm like, "hey, let's just go to bed". She's like, "but none of my friends go to bed at this time". I'm like, "but you'll be like so much happier if you do".

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: You'll feel better. Yeah.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: And you'll be able to think clearer. Like all that kind of stuff. So there's even social pressures not to sleep in high school and junior high, which I think is crazy. And I get all irate about it when you start telling me about it.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Um, how do we feel about and not just in that the adolescents and in children, but how do we feel about naps in general? Like even for adults, can it help if we're just not able to get the sleep we need during the day? Do you think it breaks the pattern of what you're trying to do?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: I think it totally depends on the situation. Um, you know, like naps in general, there's nothing inherently wrong with napping. Um, and so naps can be super helpful, you know, to help people get through the day. Um, you know, usually we want to encourage, like, shorter naps, you know, so 15, 20, 30 minutes ish. Um, once you go beyond that, you start getting into deeper stages of sleep that can make people feel more tired after they wake up. Um, for somebody with insomnia, on the other hand, um, you know, the napping during the daytime can be cutting into their total sleep time. And so they don't have as much sleepiness to use at nighttime. And so we typically the way I try to approach this is help somebody get as much sleep as possible at nighttime. And then if they're still not feeling as well as they could during the daytime, then we'll plan for a short nap earlier in the day. That is usually in my older population, um, not so much people in middle age.

Amber Warren, PA-C: How much sleep do we need? Both of you, I want all opinions on this!

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: It depends.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Okay, so you think everybody's unique? Teenagers still, it's like.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah, the age is certainly.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: For sure, yeah. So big differences by age groups. But then once again, you know, like another thing that gets people into trouble is the individual variability in sleep ability. Um, and so like one of the best comparisons I've heard to is you can think about it like a shoe size and you could say, you know, the average adult woman in the United States wears a size seven shoe, but that doesn't mean that every single person is going to wear a size seven shoe. You know, some are going to be smaller, some are going to be larger. Um, and you can think about sleep ability exactly the same way. So most adults are going to be in the 7 to 8 hour category. But there are some folks that need more sleep than that, and other people that need less sleep than that, and they can't will themselves to sleep more than your body is able to produce sleep.

Amber Warren, PA-C: So are you gauging how much sleep someone needs based on just when they feel their best?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah, so. Well, I mean, like one of my favorite things about CBT, like when we're titrating somebody's sleep schedule is we pay attention to their sleep efficiency, which is how much time you're sleeping, divided by how much time you give yourself to sleep. And so if somebody's sleep efficiency is above or the metric I use is 85%, so I'll add I'll keep adding time back into somebody's sleep schedule as long as they're able to maintain that. And so we're really using, you know, how somebody responds to the schedule to determine how much sleep they're they're able to get. But I see I mean people sleep ability is remarkably consistent when you look at averages over time. There's a lot of night to night variability, especially in somebody with insomnia. But when you look at their averages, you know, people are really regressing back to their mean or their their average amount of sleep. So, you know, like, for example, somebody may be sleeping 4 or 5 hours a night, several nights, but maybe they sleep 8 or 9 hours, you know, another couple of nights and then another couple nights at 6 or 7 hours, they may think that they need nine hours of sleep because they felt their best when they got nine hours of sleep. But the only reason they were able to sleep nine hours is because they were below their average on the previous nights, so their true average may be closer to 7.5 hours. And so this is yeah, I'm I'm convincing people of this constantly. But yeah, but once they start getting the consistency and they start doing better, you know, then they may recognize that they may not need as much sleep as they thought they did. That's probably more common in my clinic.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Okay. That's interesting.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: For me, kind of an interesting point is some people get a ton of sleep. They get ten hours, 12 hours of sleep. But it's horrible because they have sleep apnea. Right? Right. And so they're in bed. They may not even notice they're going from different sleep stages, you know, from stage three to stage 1 or 2 or whatever, because they don't fully wake up. They just wake up exhausted, thinking they need more sleep. But in actuality, they need they need to actually sleep efficiently and, you know, with good quality the whole night.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Right.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. You're talking about like, a different kind of sleep efficiency. Like, are you actually going through the different stages of sleep that you need to get through instead of just being in like, stage one, stage two, and then you, like, have an episode every time you get into REM sleep and then you wake back up shortly and then you're just repeat that cycle. So.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah. How many patients do you have that come to you with sleep studies already that have insomnia?

Amber Warren, PA-C: Good question.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Probably like out of probably like 80 or 90%.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: So that's great. So you've already ruled that out.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: That's the way. Yeah. That's the direction that things tend to to go in. Um we're usually docs are pretty quick to order sleep studies. Um, I as a behavioral health provider, I feel like behavioral health is usually kind of at the end of the road, you know, so like whether it's sleep or chronic pain or even even mood, you know, it's like therapy is kind of the the last option. You know, people will try all their different medications or other treatments first and then move on to therapy.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I feel like it's kind of nice though. Like for me, if someone comes and they've already tried a CPAP, I'm like, okay, we've done that. So now we do this and there's fewer complaints or side effects of what I do.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Right. Yeah.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. I don't have to be the one screening for sleep apnea all that often.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I'm curious how many clients you see that it's not actually insomnia. That's the underlying diagnosis. It's more of a mood issue or mood diagnosis, like anxiety. And if you fix the anxiety, the sleep comes. Do you see clients like that or is that not who ends up in your clinic?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Oh, sure. I mean, so I guess, you know, if somebody has like comorbid anxiety and depression or, I'm sorry, anxiety and insomnia or depression and insomnia like we used to think that you had to treat like the underlying other mental health condition before you could can improve their sleep, but now we actually know it can work both ways. So I can treat somebody's insomnia and help see significant improvements in their mood or their anxiety levels. And, you know, like for me, like I'll integrate treatments for anxiety into the work that we're doing. If somebody's particularly anxious, you know, they're waking up during the this isn't even particularly anxious, but somebody wakes up at 2 a.m., you know, and their mind is racing because they're thinking about something going on at work. You know, I want to help them come up with skills to address that, um, and deal with unhelpful thought patterns, um, to help them get back to sleep as, as soon as possible.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Do you do any clinical testing in your practice? I mean, I'm curious if you do any, like adrenal testing for cortisol levels or do you do any of that testing in your practice? No, it's all behavioral.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. All behavioral.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Cool. That's wonderful.

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Amber Warren, PA-C: I'm all about application of this topic because I know there's so many people that are just saying, I need more tips. I want more tips on how I can sleep better. What haven't we addressed? I mean, I know we didn't dig too much into the supplements, but back to your magnesium question threonate is the one I found the most helpful to just calm the brain down and help them sleep. Because we know the magnesium threonate crosses the blood brain barrier. Magnesium glycinate for it's true magnesium deficiency. If we're picking that up like on a magnesium RBC level, that one has a lot of benefits too. But I'll honestly often use both at night.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I mean, if you take threonate, is that going to help with the muscle stuff also or is it more so?

Amber Warren, PA-C: No, Malate for muscles. M for M, I found the most helpful. And then your magnesium citrate is what's going to get your bowels going. That can help you relax a little bit too. But it's really just what people need for constipation. Yeah I mean there's so many different forms of magnesium out there. And what's cool is there's a lot of good combination products for someone who might need help with, you know, muscle pain and aches and might need help with some occasional constipation. And they're starting to combine a lot of good products. But I think supplementation and sleep is there. I mean, I there's probably more products to help with sleep than there are anything else as far as supplementation is concerned, because I think it's such a common issue. And I don't think, again, it's insomnia is necessarily the issue. I think it's mood disorders and stress and cortisol and our modern day society. That's why people aren't sleeping.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. And I mean, there's also a difference between optimizing sleep and treating insomnia, you know, so like, are all the patients I treat for insomnia-do they have totally optimal sleep? I wouldn't say that. You know, there could be other things, you know, that could help them sleep better, feel better during the daytime. That's just not on my radar. You know, the general health care system radar, because we don't look at those things. And so we don't know. You know, and then I think in terms of like scientific studies, there's also not a lot that has been done in these areas. So I think there's a lot of potential application. Um, yeah. But you were asking about like practical strategies.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Thank you for bringing me back!

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. And like I think like a super helpful one that's probably kind of boring, but really helpful is just having a solid wind-down routine. Um, and where people are doing the same kinds of things before they go to bed at night. Um, and a really consistent kind of way. Um, and so we think about this or I think about it from a couple of different perspectives. One, we want to help somebody feel as relaxed and sleepy as possible by the time that they're going to bed. And so, you know, doing something like I usually encourage people to, you know, start transitioning in about an hour before their intended bedtime. So no more stimulating. Um, interesting kind of stuff. We switch gears, we get ready for bed, and then that's a great time for somebody to do something like reading, once again, something not too interesting. Um, you know, like I said earlier, watching The Office or something like that, you know, just any it's totally dependent on the person. But, you know, they could potentially watch TV or something to feel sleepy before bed: stretching, listening to music, like all that kind of stuff can be a great fit for people. Um, and then once people start getting in the routine of doing that stuff before they go to bed, then their brain starts to associate doing those things with feeling sleepy. And then that is really helpful because then you've got like a pattern that you can reproduce in other situations. So like let's say you're traveling and sleeping in a hotel. Um, the rest of your routine is off, but you can still go back to doing the same kinds of things that you would normally do at home before you go to bed.

Amber Warren, PA-C: That's true.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: And so, you know, like one of the things that I'll see people do sometimes is I'm kind of joking, but kind of not, you know, about, like the blue light blocking glasses. And people think it's like, well, if I wear my blue light blocking glasses, I can do anything I want before bed because I'm not getting blue light exposure.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I feel like you're talking about me right now.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: It's like I've got my blue light blocking glasses. I got my sleepy girl mocktail and I can work right up until the time I go to bed if I do these things. Yeah.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Or mindlessly scroll on social media and not think it's a problem. Yeah. So my husband gives me a hard time and I'm like, well, you're not wearing your blue light blockers. I'm fine. Yeah.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: And so I would say, you know, it's like, probably you don't need to worry about the glasses. You don't need to worry about the sleepy girl mocktail, but like, give yourself a chance to just really slow down.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Um, and that is that's so powerful and it's so simple, right? You know, it's like people have been sleeping for a very long time, and you don't have to make it too complicated.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah, it's true, but it is really hard for some people to relax in creating a relaxing routine, that is for sure.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah. And I mean, yeah, you're talking about our culture. You know, like the environments we live in. They are not helping us out. Yeah. In terms of creating those kinds of routines.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah. That's so it's so true. It is so true. How about you Dr. Bruce?

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: I think kind of the biggest thing is just educationally wise. You know there's there's different types of sleep related breathing problems. So obstructive sleep apnea is what people think of you know that you're snoring and you can witness gasping all that kind of stuff. But. Right. Um, there's something else called upper airway resistance syndrome. And it can oftentimes be a precursor or on its own to sleep apnea. And that's just where, you know, there's resistance to breathing and it's challenging. And the body fights that. So basically think that the airway is wanting to collapse, but your body saying nope, everything's you know, I'm not going to let that happen at the expense of, you know, maybe some clenching or grinding or at the expense of just not getting into deep sleep. And so, you know, you have people that may be very fit. They may, you know, not look like it's someone who's going to have a sleep apnea problem. But this upper airway resistance can result in fatigue and can result in pain. There was a study where they looked at patients with upper airway airway resistance.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: And you know, you saw just all these different somatic disorders or kind of different parts of the body where that were affected. So TMD is one of the things. So temporomandibular disorders can be related to that. Um, headaches, IBS, all sorts of things like other things that your body just kind of the immune system gets put on high alert and starts knowing something's wrong. Um, but people don't understand that it's because they're just not breathing well at night. Um, it can be related to inflammation, can be related to, you know, problems with nasal breathing and really all sorts of things. But, you know, getting a good understanding and diagnosis of the different types of sleep disorders can help you get to, you know, figure out the best way to go. Stephen Park, who is a retired EMT, wrote a good book called Sleep Interrupted, and I think that was the first one I read. That kind of opened my eyes to the different ways that that sleep problems can, and the different types of people who can get them. So I think that's super helpful.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I'd love for you to share. I'm going back a little bit, your program where you have the health device and that you do in certain age, kiddos, because I see I'm part of like a lot of, you know, hippie mom, natural mom groups on all sorts of social media. And I see a lot of people asking questions specifically about your program or just the program in general using the expansion. Can you speak to our listeners a little bit about that?

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: So the best book I found to explain it is The ALF Approach by Dr. Turzo-Moore. So she's an osteopath who worked with Dr. Nordstrom who invented the ALF. ALF is is slow light wire expansion, and it really works best the earlier you can start. So there's lots of head and development before age six. So if you can get started earlier, that's great. You know, um, it works with three things. So osteopathic kind of manipulation. So manual therapy to help, um, get the body ready to grow and develop and kind of activate the nervous system. Um, and then there's myofunctional therapy, which is, um, teaching the tongue to sit to the roof of the palate and during rest and swallow, among other things, nasal breathing. And then there's ALF, which is just a small dental device that, um, is, is myofunctionaly friendly. So it lets the tongue sit on the roof of the palate. And, you know, when everything works together, it can really aid in, again, growth of width and then also forward growth, which is what we want. So it's not for everybody. It does, you know, just like any orthodontic device, it increases risk for decay and things like that if you don't clean it properly. So you have to be on top of making sure your kid keeps their teeth really clean. Um, we don't want to have kids with acidic mouth so that are eating lots of candy, fermented carbohydrates, acid reflux, all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it's it's all part of a program of overall health. But it can when all the pieces are there, it can really work very well.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah. So my six year old has an ALF in, sorry he's eight. He started at six. So it's been two years now. Yeah. Yeah started at six. And um it's been and we've, we've, we've done it with the myofunctional work and everything else. But it's been dramatic and I just want to do a little shameless plug for your program. Um, he doesn't snore. He hardly mouth breathes anymore. His under-eye bags are completely gone. He emotionally struggled at school only because, he was always made fun of because of earwax production. And he said, mom, I keep, you know, to the point where I hate the word bully. But like, he would come home really sad because kids would make fun of the earwax he had. And it's gone. Six months into his ALF being placed, his earwax is gone. He can tolerate dairy again. He wasn't able to tolerate dairy before just because of sinus congestion and inflammation. Yeah, it's been remarkable for him.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah, it's a very unique device. And like I said, it doesn't always have that. You know, I've had all sorts of things happen with it, you know, that wouldn't I wouldn't think so. The whole body is connected, right?

Amber Warren, PA-C: Absolutely.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Um, and so kids talking about how they can walk better, their balance, like, all sorts of things. I don't ever talk about. That as something that could happen. But if something's off, you know, it creates a stress throughout the whole body. So it's really cool when that happens, when all the building blocks are there, the nutrition is there. The you know, that they've got the micronutrients you're talking about. They've got all the things to let their growth profile, you know, reach its maximum potential. So it's good to get them early and it's it's good when it works. other kids though might not be a good candidate for it. And so there are other options too.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Right.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: So it's important to take a full comprehensive health evaluation and figure out the right the right thing for the right patient.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I love that. Where can our listeners find out more about you? Did I say that right? Just tell us your website.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah, I'll make mine's really easy: kyledavisphd.com.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Great. Awesome.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Boiseintegrativedentistry.com. I think we're on social media.

Amber Warren, PA-C: You are! Your team is doing a great job.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah. And I know I do send some pictures in every now and again of things I do or case studies or whatever. But that's where it ends.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah. They're doing a great job. And Dr. Davis, you have your own private practice, and I visited your website and you have some wonderful educational videos that it would be really good for some of our listeners to go go watch.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Oh, yeah.

Amber Warren, PA-C: You've done a great job on your website.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Cool, yeah. No, those are like all old videos that I did for like other presentations. Most of them are like when I was working at Saint Luke's and doing presentations for employees. And so I posted them there. But I've got plans to add more in the future. And so yeah, specifically an insomnia education class. So that's part of the program that I developed. And I want to put that up on my website. And then I think I already have like most of my healthy sleep class on there as well.

Amber Warren, PA-C: So do you bill insurance for your consults and some of your programs or are you a cash pay only?

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Uh, both. So I am in network with some payers now.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Great. Awesome. Okay.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: So all that info is on my website about who I'm in-network with and then, um, yeah. Online scheduling, keep it simple.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Love it. And Dr. Bruce, you're the same. You do some cash pay services, but you bill insurance for a lot of your work that you do.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Yeah. It's kind of like with a lot of, uh, integrative medicine. There's some things they cover and some things they don't. And patients get to decide.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Will say for for you, I've had some patients that have just raved about your services, so.

Amber Warren, PA-C: I couldn't agree more. You've been such a blessing for us to have as a resource. So now I'm so glad to have met you and be able to know where where we can find you, because for a while it was confusing. Are you still with Luke's lifestyle medicine? What are you doing? It's been an honor. Thank you. Both of you. Thank you so much for for sharing your areas of expertise and all your pearls of wisdom.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah.

Dr. Dan Bruce, D.D.S.: Appreciate the invitation. Thank you.

Dr. Kyle Davis, Ph.D: Yeah, same.

Amber Warren, PA-C: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Functional Medicine Foundations podcast. For more information on topics covered today. Specialties available at the FMI center for Optimal Health and the highest Quality of supplements and more. Go to funmedfoundations.com.